Israeli and Palestinian motivations for war and peace

As usual with Israel and the west bank, is there a good guy here?  From Israel's standpoint there doesn't seem to be a path to a "free" Palestine that doesn't threaten Israelis.  On the other hand this is an overwhelming force advantage for Israel that is killing civilians in large numbers.  

So while I agree perception of support can be tough in either case we are stuck with bad options and diplomatic dead ends.  

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I am curious - how would a free Palestinian state actually threaten Israel more than the status quo (and the facts suggest that Jews are very safe in Israel today, just as most Americans are very safe from Jihadists)? That is of course contingent on Hamas being marginalized/under control and Fatah mostly running things, but even if a Pal. state was run by Hamas, they are not exactly ISIS. What could they do to Israel that they are not already doing now (i.e. what do they have to lose to give peace a chance)?

The settlements (populated by some of the most extremist elements of Jewish society) are provocative to Palestinians and frankly unsustainable for Israel. You get rid of them, and IMO the Palestinians have one less reason to fight. Same thing with the checkpoints, embargo, night raids, etc. I think Israel has the most to fear from the hardcore Zionists if they broker a peace accord. The zealots would try to overthrow the gov't (like our Tea Party on crack), feeling betrayed because all the land was promised to them by a 3K year old book (remember how some Zionists revolted when Sharon - who is far from a peacenik - had the IDF remove the settlers from Gaza?) Out of respect, I accept the Zionists' rights to their beliefs - but then they have to accept the costs that such beliefs impose. So to reiterate, I think the Israeli government's lack of interest in peace is not really driven by the Palestinian "threat", but a fear of the domestic repercussions. And maybe after such a long track record, I think it's fair to say that racism/bad blood/hubris are also a factor - the Israelis in power don't want to give the Palestinians (who they see as beneath them) the "victory" of peace and a self-governed homeland of their own. They may prefer to fight forever (and punish the Palestinians forever), because they know they can't lose and no one will stand in their way (apart from maybe a suicidal, nuclear Iran in a very unlikely scenario).

I think this is the 5th invasion of Gaza in 12 years. I don't think their objectives are purely security driven either. It's punitive and frankly mean/sadistic depending on your point of view. There's no strategic need to attack ambulances, hospitals, and international monitors/press. But that is what they do. Like what Efrati said about the Territories - some of what the IDF does is just to show everyone who's running things. That is not righteous, that is not defensive... it's bullying. And it's not just punishment for the Gazans choosing Hamas (as if they really had a choice), because the IDF is operating harshly (but obviously less harshly) in the W Bank too. IMO, all of it is punishment for the Palestinians refusing to fade away quietly into the night. They simply won't just die off or go away, and let the Jews enjoy their purely Jewish homeland. So the IDF and Israeli gov't are going to make their lives hell in perpetuity. Clearly it could be worse; it's not like the IDF is employing Boko Haram or North Korea tactics every day. The IDF/Israeli gov't have some decency/limits/respect for laws of course, but I feel that their disturbing actions/policies are permeated by this undercurrent of bigotry/bullying/resentment/what have you.

Maybe what I've said in this email is pretty controversial and offensive. I am sorry for that, but this is my assessment of the situation. I have to emphasize that my criticisms are focused on the Israeli military/gov't (run mostly by extremists) and the sectors of society that enable/profit from the Occupation/violence. I know that many Israelis are rational people who would love to give peace a chance. But like the Keret article, they may be under a lot of social/ethnic pressure to just toe the line and go along with what the Jewish State declares. And for the record, plenty of Israeli civilians and IDF reservists, active, or retired soldiers have spoken out against these tactics and/or refused to participate (sometime under physical threat from hawkish Jews).

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/24/amidst_brutal_operation_in_our_name
https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=795070259362236467#editor/target=post;postID=6027526199283616770;onPublishedMenu=allposts;onClosedMenu=allposts;postNum=78;src=postname
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/sep/25/israel
http://www.pri.org/stories/2014-07-24/anti-war-voices-israel-face-threats-and-violence

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Clearly Israel isn't the categorical good guy.  Sort of my point.  But before Gaza or Palestine becomes independent, is there any other Islamic state (or ethnically middle eaten state) that either doesn't or hasn't wanted to destroy Israel?  Are there democracies anywhere near as free or open as Israel?  Compare Palestinian acceptance in Jerusalem to Jewish acceptance in Tehran or Dubai or Baghdad or pick a place.  

While you might argue it can't be worse and perhaps that is true the position of power Israel has over Palestine could never be accepted over a sovereign country.  And whether or not that is moral from the Israeli state's perspective it is better for security.  Unless you believe a free Palestine won't elect Hamas or be an enemy to Israel.

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Well, Israel and Egypt have had a long-standing peace (mostly brokered and paid for by the US). Turkey is a big military trading partner with Israel. And I am fairly sure that Pakistan, Indonesia, and others don't want war with Israel any time soon. In fact, the 30K minority of Jews still living in Iran are generally not mistreated (it is the most Jew-friendly nation in the region outside of Israel, despite the stupid things that Ahmadinejad has said in the past). So in the Iranian case, it seems Persians justifiably dislike the actions/policies of the Israeli gov't, and do not wish harm on all Jews (dispelling another Israeli myth). I believe that is the case for many Arab-Muslim countries. A lot of countries don't like each other in the world, but they generally know how to coexist or at least refrain from violence. The other Arab-Muslim states have not attacked Israel for decades, if ever.

I think Israeli propaganda often exaggerates the hatred and "mortal dangers" they are under, when they are often the aggressor and clear economic-military power in the region (with strong US backing). Part of that may be intended to elicit Western sympathy, due to the emotional associations with past persecutions. Jews have not been treated well for most of history, but those bygone events do not really characterize the Jewish situation in 2014 (other peoples today are suffering much worse ethnic persecution with less ability to defend themselves - such as the south Sudanese, Syrian Sunnis, etc.).

Just because many of Israel's neighbors have a comparatively worse record on freedom, good governance, and tolerance - I'm not sure if that absolves Israel of its failings in those areas. Keep in mind that Israel doesn't really have a free press vis-a-vis Palestinian matters, Israeli Arabs are institutionally discriminated against, Jewish fundamentalists sometime terrorize moderates and non-Jews, and the Israeli gov't is responsible for more war crimes and civilian deaths than most of its neighbors (except for Saddam's Iraq and Syria recently). A growing % of Israelis openly chant "kill all Arabs" just like the converse (i.e. there is mutual hate and no side is "innocent").

I believe that an independent Palestine will not be a greater threat to Israel than the status quo of Palestinian abject poverty and armed resistance to occupation. Most peoples in the world do not want to live under a religious fundamentalist regime. Palestinians and Arabs might like/support groups like Hamas-Hezbollah because they are the only ones with the audacity to fight back against Israeli oppression (propaganda from their side glorifying the struggle and making them look like heroic martyrs). But in the absence of war/occupation, their status/raison-d'etre fades away, and they are exposed as horrible rulers that few people endorse (people generally prefer dancing and booze over burkhas and beards). So that is why I think it is highly unlikely that Hamas would come to lead an independent Palestine, much less rally the country to fight Israel state-to-state (which would be a sure victory for Israel).


Again, I think Israel's fear-mongering over the 2-state solution (or giving any concessions to Palestinians) is a propaganda play. Their reasoning is basically: why give Palestinians more rights/land/etc. when their only goal is the destruction of Israel? They assume (or want us to believe) that Palestinian violence is driven by unrelenting anti-Semitism and suicidal intolerance, when in fact it is mainly resistance to Israeli brutality/injustice. Hate obviously plays a role, but rarely in history have the oppressed not expressed hatred against their oppressors. And that may be one of the Palestinians' key strategic flaws - they didn't have the courage/discipline to stick to nonviolent resistance a la Mandela/Gandhi. But maybe they figured that approach would likely fail due to Western support/bias for Israel?