Showing posts with label price. Show all posts
Showing posts with label price. Show all posts

Monday, June 9, 2008

Cheaper iPhone


http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/patterson/22479

Gotta hand it to His Steveness. Stick it to the most die-hard crack-addict Apple fans last year, who just had to have it on release day, with a bloated $600 8 GB iPhone v1.0 (with slow-ass EDGE Internet connectivity and triangulation instead of GPS). And then when sales didn't meet projections, the stock suffered somewhat, over 50% of people in one survey said that the iPhone's price was prohibitive, and rival companies developing more affordable smart-touch phone alternatives, they unveiled a better 3G/GPS 8 GB iPhone that is over 50% cheaper ($199)! Now Apple gets the best of both worlds - over-charging the Mac-addicts, and under-cutting the competition. Well, at least A's prophecy rang true that iPhone v2.0 would be less elitist and more accessible/affordable for the masses, even if most cell phone users wouldn't really use all those bells and whistles, and couldn't afford a $100+/month cell plan.

Thursday, June 5, 2008

More on oil

There's an interesting briefing on oil in last week's Economist which takes a fairly different tone.

The section Stocks, bonds and barrels in http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11453090 argues against the suggestion that price increases are the result of speculation. They look at other commodity markets which have seen similar market behavior without similar price behavior, and look at the ability of futures trading to effect the market price. The financial analysis is interesting, but it basically boils down to this: the market is set by supply and demand of real barrels, and oil speculators are not hoarding barrels. The Economist's read on the furor about speculators is that this is political hay-making: politicians are desperately afraid of an election year with radically high oil prices, and they're searching frantically for a way to deflect blame. "Wall Street fat cats" are a great populist target for that sort of thing. It's worth noting that the CFTC, the government's own regulator for commodities markets, investigated oil speculation and found little reason for concern - it's the CFTC's chief economist who's getting cited most frequently in the "no it's not speculation" camp.

Their suggestion is that price increases have a more prosaic basis in supply and demand. Oil is a commodity with very little short-term demand elasticity (if the price goes up, people generally pay it rather than doing without) and very little short-term supply elasticity (it takes years to find/develop new fields). And it's a market which suffers various short-term supply shocks: much of the world's oil production is in countries where the rule of law is less than complete, and every time rebels blow up a pipeline there's a price movement. There's a good discussion of this at the end of the previously-linked article ... my knowledge of the differences between heavy and light crude and the various manufacturing impacts there was pretty minimal, and they have some interesting data.

There's some interesting commentary on the effects of fuel subsidies in http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11453151. In China, for example, the price of petrol to a consumer hasn't risen since the start of the year (during which time the price in the US has increases 33%) because of government subsidies there. That helps reduce the elasticity of demand, and also apparently is causing Chinese oil firms to reduce their output.

Finally, there is a hopeful point underneath all of this. From their leader article, http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11454989:

"The 1970s showed how demand and supply, inelastic in the short run, eventually give rise to conservation and new production. When all those new fields are on-stream, when the SUVs have been sold and the boilers replaced, the downcycle will take hold. By then the slow-motion oil shock could have catalysed momentous change. Right now motorists have no substitute for oil. But it is no coincidence that car companies are suddenly accelerating their plans to sell electric hybrids that are far cheaper to run than petrol or diesel cars at these prices. The first two oil shocks banished oil from power generation. How fitting if the third finished the job and began to free transport from oil's century-long monopoly."

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Thanks for the links and I'd tend to trust E's analysis over CNN's, but of course there are many sides to this issue and some journalists (and bloggers) tend to get myopic to make their argument, obviously myself included. So probably the truth is a combination of many factors. I don't believe that speculation is a stronger force than traditional supply/demand, but we can't just dismiss it completely. When the oil companies themselves are reaping huge profits yet claiming the sky-high prices are a result of "supply and demand economics", I think that's a smoke screen that may even suggest the converse.

I agree that big shot Wall Street banks are an easy and maybe exaggerated culprit to blame in an election year. You are right that the CFTC experts dispute the effect of speculation on oil futures trading, but what else can they say? It's hard for them to collect meaningful data and draw any conclusions actually, since they lack access to so much of the trading that is offshore or OTC without public disclosure. If they admit that speculators are manipulating prices, then they effectively confess their incompetence and impotence as regulators. However, the oil traders themselves are saying the opposite. I know some people have incentive to dress up the truth based on their priorities, but why would the oil traders accuse the hedge funds of meddling if they were actually causing no harm? Oil traders are professionals who do this for a living, and they are saying the recent influx of Wall Street billions are making their lives more difficult. And yes, it's a two-way street as the article said. Trading activity doesn't just make the price go up, but high prices encourage more investment so they don't miss the boat if the price goes even higher.

But here's where the conventional supply/demand arguments get tricky. Oil's record rise from $70 to $130 over the past year is actually not reflected at the pump. And the price trickle-down delay from NYMEX to the pump is a month or less, so we should have seen a bigger change. If gasoline prices went up commensurate with oil's, gas would be at or over $6/gallon (taxes and surcharges included). Diesel is so much higher than regular gas because of recent refining capacity miscalculations, but even diesel hasn't reached $6 yet. Actually automobile fuel accounts for only 8% or so of US oil consumption (according to the link below), so even if the whole country drives 30% less (quite a challenge), we're reducing overall US fossil fuel consumption by a measley 2.5%. So much of our consumption is inelastically tied to industry, power/heating, and commercial transport, so it's much harder for them to conserve since they have business operations to run. Fishermen and truckers in Europe protested their diesel prices, but the airlines are getting screwed even worse. So sure global demand is going up, but only about 1M barrels/year or 1.25% according to The E graph, so why did prices rise nearly 100%? Well as you said, people get somewhat irrational when it comes to securing energy supplies, since a shortage is so catastrophic to an industrialized nation. So it's scary that traders are willing to buy up futures contracts like crazy, even at $130.

http://www.gravmag.com/oil.html

Another argument The E makes doesn't seem to hold water. They say that oil prices are tremendously sensitive to even small supply disruptions. That may be true in general, but it can't explain the recent price jump, because there have been no significant crises in oil producing zones besides the brief border standoff between Venezuela, Ecuador, and Colombia. And on the flipside, during the bad two years where we had Katrina, genocide in Darfur, the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, posturing for war with Iran, a plummetting dollar, a nuclear test in N Korea, and overt civil war in Iraq, oil prices did not surge as much as now!

Maybe we haven't reached Peak Oil yet, but it looks fairly close. According to my mom (30 years in the business), global output in most countries has plateaued or decreased since 2000, and only the Saudis and UAE have excess capacity, but it's like 3% or less. All the "low hanging fruit" and easy oil wells are maxed out. Now we have to drill deeper through tougher rock (in land or water) if we want to access new reserves. Russia and China have probably lied for years about their domestic production and stockpiling, so it's hard to tell what is going on over there, but it's not like Putin is sitting on 10% excess capacity. As The E said, refining and drilling overhead has risen over 70% since 2000, so it's more expensive to maintain historical production levels, but the obscene trading prices more than compensate. Therefore, nations and companies have little incentive to explore more, innovate, and increase supply to keep up with demand (the Saudis basically laughed in Bush's face when he begged them to boost output). Why would they risk out-pacing demand and making the price dip? They'll only act when their best wells start to run out, but there are plenty of new technologies to extract the last drops of oil from wells previously thought to be dry, if you have the skilled workforce and industrial capacity to implement them.

I just feel bad because these price jumps hurt the poor the most, as usual, and it's worse abroad. So if rich Westermers are profiting from that through trading, it's unacceptable. These funds just grow wealth for their clients yet add no value to the host industry; at least oil companies reinvest their windfall profits in R&D to improve future production. And as your last link showed, plenty of less developed oil-producing nations are forced to subsidize energy and even import refined fuels, or their people won't be able to afford it and they couldn't keep up with consumption. Plus they'll revolt against the government, as we saw in Iran when they decided to implement gas rations in preparation for a possible UN embargo/US war over their nuclear program. Most of the nations on that list could use a lot of improvement to their schools, health care, infrastructure, etc. Their huge oil profits could help, but much of it has to be siphoned off for subsidizing ever more expensive fuel (and military spending to defend against a possible Bush invasion). It's not their fault the prices are rising at NYMEX (they are at max capacity), but they're hurting too - just in other areas besides the explicit price at the pump.

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One thing to keep in mind is that the term "speculation" is being used in a rather loose fashion; most commentators include the creation of ETFs and Index Funds which deal exclusively in oil (and, implicitly, oil futures contracts) when attributing the rapid increases in prices & volatility to "speculation". I read the articles you referenced this last weekend... though the only one I shared via Google Reader was the article regarding inflation (the indisputable result of sustained increases in energy prices).

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Well I guess after the first Gulf War, there was more or less global political stability, drilling/pipeline technologies were improving, and nations like Venezuela, the former Soviet bloc, and OPEC as a whole were growing output, so the excess supply made the global price of oil plummet to below $20/barrel. Companies had to tighten their belts and even universities closed their petroleum engineering departments for lack of interest/funding. So I'm sure that oil producing nations/companies were secretly (or not) celebrating when Bush went into Iraq - the shot in the arm that the industry craved. BTW, Iraqi production has still not yet returned to late 1980s levels under Saddam (post Iran-Iraq War of course).

If I may address some of R & J's last points for a bit: well, I tend to think that commodities futures index funds are speculative by nature. They're betting on prices to move the way they want, and even if prices dip they can potentially sell short. Diversification aside, if there were more attractive investment options, they would take them. Investment in commodities funds has increase ten-fold in the last few years.

Actually that CNN piece did bring up a good point that no one wanted to comment on, the influence of the credit crunch. With the dollar weak and interest rates at stupid low levels, of course commodities look more attractive. Why have foodstuffs, precious metals, and energy all made astronomical gains during the same short time period? Asia is buying up more food, energy, and jewelry than ever before, but it can't be explained away by supply/demand, since the West still accounts for the majority of trading/consumption. I guess on the surface there is nothing wrong with investing in commodities futures; it can be a safe move. But I don't know much about this subject. However, when a fund buys up a million shares of Google or GE, they're not really hurting anyone, no matter how the stock moves. Of course huge sell-offs can hurt other investors, but buying up stocks doesn't seem to have many negative side-effects, apart from artificially inflating market cap. But when speculators are massively buying up commodities, they impact the people who are competing for those resources and may not be able to withstand large price spikes. How can people living on less than $5/day, and their struggling governments, afford 70% jumps in basic essentials that Wall Street traders casually toss around like baseballs? By playing that market, they are essentially "playing with people's lives", which is what I object to. Commodities are consummables that people depend on for survival, not just pieces of paper or blips on a broker's computer. It almost reminds me of The Grapes of Wrath during the Depression, where big farmers in CA would rather destroy their excess produce than give it to the starving Okies, in order to keep the market prices from falling. But all the while, the poor people's wrath was growing, and it's growing again now.

And like J said, shortages and rising prices are the only factors that can ultimately get stubborn economies to move towards better efficiency and alternative sources. However, this change won't come overnight, so what do the disadvantaged people do in the meantime who are dependent on prices not surpassing a certain threshold? And we're way beyond that threshold for some commodities already. Some people need to drive to work and feed families of 8. They are conserving because they have to. Some people don't have the ability or mobility to change jobs or some living habits though (socioeconomic factors are more to blame than personal choices in those cases). Of course well-to-do people, who may be the ones most able to conserve and still maintain a quality life, keep over-consuming because they can afford to. Without subsidies and donations, probably a billion people wouldn't be able to eat or travel with these current prices, some even as close to home as Tracy, CA. So yes, the high prices are affecting consumer habits and what companies are able to provide us. Whole Foods is losing business, airlines are laying off thousands and cutting routes, and GM is contemplating the future of their Hummer line. On the flipside, VC investment in green tech is growing rapidly, though not all American cities can benefit from growth in this new sector (actually the sad part is the growth is in areas that are already rich, like urban CA). So while the industrialized world is transitioning to a new way of living and working under the realities of $100 oil, what do the underclasses do in the meantime?

Monday, May 26, 2008

We have to drive; but they have to eat

Maybe you guys have heard of the scary dialogue from IMF, World Food Program, and others about the rising costs of staple commodities across the globe. Like with hydrocarbons, it's not a matter of poor supply (there was no bad harvest or climate disaster to blame), but demand has gone up across the board. There have already been riots in Mexico, Haiti, Egypt, and other places, where basic necessities such as corn/rice/wheat have risen 30-130% over the last YEAR.

Due to geography, socioeconomics, and whatnot, of course some nations will be grain importers or exporters. Obviously the price changes are benefiting the exporters (usually prosperous Western nations with mechanized mega-agriculture) and severely hurting the importers (besides Japan and parts of Europe, mostly Third World nations). The US is an interesting case where federal subsidies have kept our major agribusinesses competitive during periods of cheap pricing. To be fair, most rich nations subsidize their farmers too, even wealthy farmers who would turn a nice profit without any assistance. I would hope subsidies will decrease as global prices rise, but I'm not sure how Congress has structured the laws. Actually producers may prefer to sell their corn/soy/etc. as biofuel raw materials to domestic distilleries, rather than exporting them overseas as foodstuffs. The amount of corn needed to produce 25 gallons of fuel ethanol is equal to an average person's yearly corn intake. So that means a million SUV fill-ups could feed a million people for a year. Kind of scary. I guess that's why the World Bank chief called biofuels a "significant contributor" to the food price crisis, and others said it was the "straw that broke the camel's back".

China, India, and other emerging Asian nations are another bizarre case study. Due to economic growth, all of a sudden we have half a billion Asians eating more meat and more raw mass of food per capita versus 20 years ago, when global food prices were quite low. We know that animal farming for meat production is highly grain-intensive. It's also very polluting and wasteful of water, as farmers require 7X more water to produce one kg of beef versus one kg of wheat, and we know that water shortages have been the cause of many conflicts too. Well, the average Chinese is eating 250% more meat than he/she did in 1980, so no wonder prices are on the rise.

But what can we do? Westerners have the money to pay top dollar for grains in order to produce (subsidized) ethanol for our vehicles. We have places to go and things to do/buy. More Asians have the money to buy more and better food. They deserve to enjoy a good diet, and we are trying to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels as well as combat climate change (even though ethanol fuel is more environmentally harmful than oil by some measures). Yet all the while, the poorest two billion people, who were already hard-pressed to put food on the table, are now priced into starvation because of us. The World Food Program has had to recalculate its budget from $500M to $700M since last year, and still they don't come close to providing for everyone. 40-50% of that sum comes from US taxpayers – so their growing difficulty in feeding the needy is hurting us too. It's not like "evil, greedy people" are causing this problem, but market forces and whatnot are making the most vulnerable third of humanity suffer even more. I do find it despicable that a select few farmers/speculators are rolling in cash from this crisis, and in some cases taking advantage of the rest of us by manipulating an already panicky market.

All this makes me want to become a vegetarian, especially now that beef prices hit a record high (http://agresearch.tamu.edu/agnews/index.php?id=392).

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Side note: Actually the biofuel economy has opened the door for a lot of manipulation. The EU and US both passed mandates to increase biofuel availability, so subsidies exist that encourage import and production. Producers have found a way to exploit a loophole in the trading system, where some Europeans will ship biodiesel to the US, where it is blended with 1% fossil fuel diesel, and then shipped back to the EU for sale. This "B99.9" blend is heavily subsidized, which undercuts other European producers. But does that save the planet to waste energy shipping basically the same product back and forth across the Atlantic, just so a few jerks can make a buck? And all the while, global demand and cost for soy have risen dramatically, making many people go hungry.

http://www.fairhome.co.uk/2008/04/01/eu-is-urged-to-take-action-as-a-biofuel-trading-scam-is-exposed/

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A good breakdown from BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7284196.stm

The cost of food: facts and figures

Explore the facts and figures behind the rising price of food across the globe.

Line graphs showing rising food prices 2005-07 and price rises by food type, 2007

Graphic illustrating price rises in corn, rice, soya and wheat

Bar chart of US ethanol production 1995-2016, and image of tractor in field
Rising oil prices and fears over climate change have seen a massive rise in the use of maize to make bio-fuels, pushing up food prices

Graphic showing world population growth 1950-2050
There will be billions more mouths to feed by 2050, making an increased demand for food a long-term trend

Graphic showing change in Chinese meat consumption and pressure on water resources driven by wheat and beef production

Map of global wheat production

Map showing projected change in global balance of trade
Rising prices will improve the trade balance of major food exporters, but major importers stand to see a greater deficit

Oil speculation


Hey don't lump oil companies in there! Haha, we had nothing to do with that, or high gas prices. It's the oil companies that are trying to meet the increasing global demand. I think this article has more do to with EPA corruption than big oil. The EPA Chief is such a tool, but you know after Bush's term is over, this guy is going to be a major player at some energy/auto consulting company.
I never understood this story, it seems like everyone knew this was stupid and he still went with denying the waiver. The funny thing is, everyone also knew he was going to deny it. Its the worst kept secret, that its not a secret.
From a stock perspective, (which I might add C is doing quite well lately) i think oil companies are becoming more like big pharma. Since our retail sales are actually hurting (we buy oil from ourselves and other companies to refine into gasoline and suffer since the margins are actually low). We are looking to slowly divest ourselves from worldwide gasolines sales to purely discovery. Its like big pharma in that they do all the research and testing to produce a blockbuster drug which produces a majority of their revenue - is that accurate?

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http://www.wtrg.com/prices.htm

Thx for writing H, and sorry in advance for this oil rant. Well, you are right that there's little $$ to be made in the downstream oil industry. Gas stations make like 5 cents profit for every gallon of fuel sold to us (less than 2%), and mostly rely on food/drink sales to survive. Refining companies like Valero (who don't drill or own fields) are hard-pressed to make a buck, especially with all the environmental and bureaucratic headaches involved with running/maintaining refineries safely and legally. But on the upstream side, it's basically more free money with no extra value added. Why else would backwards Russia, Venezuela, and Iran be global power players now? Due to global instability, rising demands, weak dollar, etc. oil used to cost $10/barrel in the '90s, but now is $130. Though the price jump defies traditional supply/demand economics. Global demand has not risen 10x since the '90s, and the dollar's value hasn't fallen to 1/10, so something else is at play. Energy trading has often been a corrupt enterprise (Enron, Standard Oil, etc.), but maybe we're reaching new heights now.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8878

The oil futures trading market is probably chock full of manipulators, if the stock market is any indication. This website has an interesting take on the current high oil prices (disclaimer: they're an anti-globalization group, so not sure how fair/valid their info is, but it seems plausible). A Senate investigation suggested that 60% of the current oil price is purely due to speculation, since every hedge fund, bank, and their mothers are rushing to buy up as much oil as possible now, since there are fears that we've reached peak oil (the maximum possible drilling capacity, so it's all downhill from here!). Oil prices on paper have very little to do with tangible supply/demand/scarcity/security issues. Remind you of the housing bubble?

And oil trading is poorly regulated by government, as you would expect. The Commodities Exchange Act (CEA) passed by Congress is supposed to enable the Commodities Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) to prevent speculation/manipulation from endangering fair trade and the US economy. Too late. Just as the NYSE has electronic and human safeguards to prevent or mitigate huge sell-offs (which backfired on Black Monday), the CFTC is supposed to limit oil trading if it becomes problematic. Probably hasn't happened. Plus companies have found ways to circumvent regulation and disclosure. In 2000, Enron and others lobbied Congress to exempt electronic "over-the-counter" futures trading from federal oversight, and US companies/investors can always trade overseas in London or Dubai to skirt domestic monitoring. So basically, high-level oil trading and the setting of prices are total black boxes to consumers and the government. If you thought subprime lending and mortgage-backed-securities trading were shady, I think oil futures could be worse.

And now that oil prices are so high and demand continues to grow, a vicious cycle is emerging. To hedge against future price hikes/shortages - or to simply make a buck - investors, companies, and governments are stockpiling oil like never before. Sure this is a prudent thing to do for risk mitigation, but it also serves to inflate demand/prices, thereby exacerbating the very problem they're trying to guard against. Of course this is great news for speculators - it's like buying up all the Purell and flu vaccines before winter hits.

Optional digression:

So in response (mostly to kiss voter ass before November), Congress overwhelmingly voted to temporarily halt shipments to America's Strategic Petroleum Reserve (SPR). Bush didn't veto the bill, though he opposes it and doubts it will help lower prices since maintaining the SPR accounts for less than 0.01% of global oil demand (near 85M barrels/day, of which the US uses 20, the EU 14, and China/Japan 7 each). The government adds about 70k barrels to the 97% full SPR each day, and has 0.7B barrels total in storage in TX and LA in case of WWIII (more likely because of Bush!). He has a good point that cutting off SPR shipments will have a miniscule effect on global prices, but for an oilman and Harvard/Yale grad, his flawed contradictory reasoning on ANWR is humorous. He often says we need to increase domestic drilling/capacity to stave off rising oil prices and dependence on unstable foreign oil producers. Fair enough. So he wants to drill in ANWR, REALLY wanted to for a long time (frankly at this point, I'm fed up with it and couldn't give a crap about the Sierra Club fighting to save some remote tundra and caribou herds anyway).

In a recent press conference, he stated that the DOE thinks there is enough oil in ANWR to make 27M gallons of gasoline/diesel. I laughed so I wouldn't cry. If that is true, what's the point in hauling millions of dollars worth of equipment and manpower to one of the most inhospitable places on Earth just to extract less than a day's worth of US gasoline consumption that won't be available for years? Oh yeah, to award lucrative contracts! And how are we going to get the oil down here – expensive pipeline, fuel-consuming trucks/train, or Santa Claus? For the record, it's funny that oilman Bush was WAY OFF on his ANWR estimate. The USGS thinks there are 10B "theoretically recoverable" barrels of oil under ANWR, give or take, and max production would be 0.9M barrels/day by 2025. But the DOE says it would only lower global oil prices by 50 cents and barely reduce foreign imports to the US. Though these calculations were made in 2004 when oil was $35/barrel, so ANWR might look like a more attractive option now. Either way, it's not a panacea.

http://www.photius.com/rankings/economy/oil_consumption_2007_0.html

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080519/pl_nm/usa_oil_bush_dc_1

http://priceofoil.org/2008/04/30/bush-open-anwr-to-ease-gas-crisis/

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question417.htm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4542853/

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So I don't think that oil companies have colluded with corrupt politicians to inflate prices as of late, but they have in the past. I don't blame them for the current situation, though I resent them for taking advantage of it (record profits in back-to-back-to-back years for multiple companies while enjoying plenty of subsidies/tax breaks). Maybe their stocks don't totally reflect their earnings, because they're pumping a lot of that money back into R&D and new oil exploration as you said, which is getting more and more expensive to perform. We will probably never run out of oil in our lifetimes, because there's always a little drop here and there left in the rock. It just depends how much money and effort we want to spend to extract and refine it, and how much we can sell it for. I guess that's why many former USSR and Gulf nations are living large, because they sit on easy decent-quality oil that costs $5-10/barrel to extract (after drilling costs are paid back) and deliver to customers, who are paying much more for it. Of course some poorer oil nations lack the skilled workforce, sociopolitical stability, and industrial infrastructure to drill properly, so they hire foreign oil companies to do it for them. And usually the foreigners make out better financially, unless Venezuela or Bolivia decides to nullify contracts and nationalize everything.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/29/AR2006042900526.html

And sometimes the companies are seen as colonialists and exploiters, since they may destroy the local environment, prop up undemocratic regimes, abuse the locals, and even finance wars (no BS). I won't get into it now since it's a separate topic, but if you're curious, do a Google search for Mobil (now ExxonMobil) in Aceh Indonesia, Texaco (now ChevronTexaco) and Total (now TotalFinalElf) in Myanmar, the same 3 companies in Angola, or RoyalDutchShell in Nigeria to hear some true horror stories. And of course Chevron is in the news for Texaco's alleged pollution of the Ecuadoran Amazon. Didn't they take out a full-page ad to protest the two Ecuadorans winning the prestigious Goldman Environmental Prize for fighting against ChevronTexaco? To be fair, Chevron claim that Ecuador's state oil company did the bulk of the polluting, and they already settled with the Ecuadoran government for $40M in clean-up costs. Though this time there is a civil suit for billions on behalf of the villagers impacted.

http://www.reuters.com/article /environmentNews/idUSN1444697220080414

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN02415548