Showing posts with label torture. Show all posts
Showing posts with label torture. Show all posts

Wednesday, March 2, 2016

TLDR campaign discussion 2

I'm referring to the ability of the electorate to alter the policies and behavior of the state through elections. If the system doesn't allow for that, I think it's failing the first and most essential test of popular government.

Our current system seems to be doing worse and worse on this criterion (partly due to Constitutional constraints such as checks and balances and the separation of powers, partly for other reasons), and I think it's creating a worsening democratic deficit in national government. This deficit makes the system more vulnerable to people like Trump by undermining the electorate's confidence in the ability of the political system to address political problems.

Fundamentally, the public needs to be to vote for something in one election; bring the people promising it into power; and then, next time around, if they're not happy with how things have gone, throw the government out and vote someone else into the chair sitting under the sword of Damocles. In our current system, we never get to hold any party responsible for failure because every part of the system is so interdependent with all the others. There's a smaller and smaller scope for actual policymaking, so, in lieu of democratic government, we're stuck with a permanent election campaign.

---

Yeah the irony is that we are in 24-7 campaign mode, yet the incumbents win 95% of the time, and occasionally we get the macro cycles of "boot the bums out" every decade or so (or every recession/fiasco: Iraq led to the Dem majority, financial crisis led to Obama, and then Obama - racism/panic over what Obama represents IMO - led to the TP and GOP resurgence).

As you said, what is the point of elections and representative gov't if they don't reflect the wants of the voters? When candidates are generally limited to the insider/oligarch class (incl. Trump), obviously that doesn't represent most voters. But with Citizens United and other structural realities of our system, how can that change? If anything, it will continue to change for the worse as you said. Good times.

Another problem is that voters get so fed up with the corrupt, apathetic elites that they want reform/revolution, but then opportunists like Trump, Le Pen, Hugo Chavez, etc. ride the angry populist wave, even though they are in it for themselves & may even make things worse.
---

As far as how to change it goes, I see it as a problem of institutions more than anything else. Our institutions don't provide clear signals to voters and this contributes to viciously perverse incentives for politicians.

To think of it as an analytical problem, election platforms are hypotheses and actions in office are experiments. Our problem is that our experiments are poorly controlled and rife with confounding factors, so we can never disprove any of our hypotheses. (Obviously, even under the best of circumstances, it's hard to identify intraterm success metrics for politicians, since many effects may lag their causes by years or even generations; but we're a very long way from this being our biggest problem.) The effect of this phenomenon is that we have a calcified set of hypotheses that become quasireligious totems ("lower taxes", "universal healthcare", "school choice", "gun control", etc.) and almost totally monopolize our political discourse, in large part because they can't be meaningfully tested.


To tip my hand a little bit, I'd point to the UK. Their system has a number of weaknesses, but it hasn't suffered much from this particular problem. Margaret Thatcher remains a deeply divisive figure in the UK, but no one is confused about what she did. Likewise Clement Attlee; you may love the NHS or you may hate it, but there's no question that Attlee's government is responsible for it. I want that kind of agency and clarity for American governments.


I'm personally not all that concerned by the fact that politicians disproportionately come from the upper classes. There's a long and (mostly) honorable tradition of aristrocrats who find a constituency outside the aristocracy, from Pericles to the Gracchi to Lafayette to Asquith to Kerensky to FDR to Stevenson to Trump. (Kerensky and Asquith weren't quite as aristocratic as the other names on the list, of course, but they both came from classes whose interests were not the main beneficiaries of their platforms.) As long as the people are the sole source of political power, anyone who wants to wield that power will have to cater to the interests of the electorate, even if it might go against the interests of the class into which they were born. History shows us that there are plenty of members of the upper classes who will cheerfully oblige.


That being said, I'm conceding in advance that my prediction "We won't be taking about Donald Trump after Super Tuesday" is not going to come true. I still wouldn't give him much better than even odds of winning the nomination right now, but, on my estimation, his odds have been much more improved than worsened in the last couple weeks, and the break in the party elites' refusal to support him seems a very significant move in his favor. Oh well.


---

 
I like that insight that political platforms = hypotheses and administrations = expts. Too bad that the folks in power always attribute "successes" to their actions/vision and failures to the opposition party / external events / people who hate the country. Maybe some of it is true, but that prevents a lot of useful learning and avoidance of repeated mistakes (e.g. Vietnam to Iraq to the inevitable next quagmire).

Well, you must have seen the S. Tues results. I suppose Kasich is holding on to try to win OH, but probably that helps Trump because his supporters would likely not shift to Trump's camp if he bowed out. A Brokered Conv. would be quite something, and in this case I'd say it's justified. But it is a slippery slope as Peter suggested. 

At least it's not like the smoky secret boardrooms where Cheney and Co. planned out how we would carve up the Middle East among Exxon, Boeing, and Halliburton. In this case, it's "how the fuck do we prevent calamity and save what shreds are left of the GOP's rep?" Maybe this is an unfair analogy, but it's kind of like the Turkish/Egyptian/Pakistani military stepping in (as a venerable institution guarding the national interest) and unseating the Muslim Brotherhood or some other leader. Call it a coup, but I guess sometime in a coup you can actually replace a bad guy with a less bad guy. 

Lastly to change gears a bit, I am pretty tired of Michael Hayden's PR tour re: his recent book to whitewash all his spycraft from the last decade. 
  • The most misleading quote he had recently was that "if [Trump or the next president] wants to bring back waterboarding, they need to bring their own bucket." (slight paraphrase) Meaning that the CIA would refuse to participate. 
    • It's not because the CIA has somehow found morals and now respects int'l laws, but that they felt "betrayed" by the Obama admin. and Congressional Dems who investigated the activity and alleged that it was criminal. 
    • He said that the torturers acted in good faith and under the assumption that the (Bush) WH lawyers supported what they were trying to do, ostensibly to reduce threats and gather intel. 
      • So that makes it all good, because the intent was noble and their boss said it was OK? You have a sworn duty to not follow unlawful orders. 
    • He totally ignored the fact that our security apparatus has some real bad apples / sociopaths in it, and they welcome any opportunity to overstep bounds. 
      • But we should probably blame the politicians/voters for this. We were all freaked out after 9/11 and just gave the security svcs. carte-blanche: "just protect us and we don't care how you do it, we'll look the other way." We shouldn't be surprised that some abuses occurred.
  • Hayden said that Trump's proposal to go after terrorists' families "because they deserve it" is wrong; intel is about anticipating the future, not avenging the past. 
    • While that is partly true in principle, there is no way that the CIA/NSA isn't deep in the vengeance and punishment game (hasn't he heard of Richard Nixon?). 

At least he's siding with Apple vs. the FBI. Anyone who thinks it's safer for the gov't to have exclusive keys to a backdoor into our most intimate personal devices, and nothing could possible go wrong with that, well I have a bridge to sell you.

---

I think it's humorous that if Trump wasn't running this year, we'd probably be mocking Rubio/Cruz/Carson as total joke candidates. But in comparison they are the safe/sane ones. Remember the "Teflon Don" John Gotti? Trump is the new "Teflon Donald" because as Eric said, no matter what terrible stuff he says/does, his support doesn't take a hit. Truly marketing & demagoguery at its worst. This is cold-water-to-the-face for US politics, but it should also be for US civics education. We might not have gotten to this point if secondary school (and parents/role models) did a better job to stress the seriousness & implications of civic engagement & vetting leaders.

Re: the CIA, yeah I think we can always find anecdotes where torture was "effective" or "ineffective." I suppose it also depends if they nabbed the right guy, as our thugs have rounded up & rendered to Gitmo (and Syria, when we actually paid Assad to torture folks for us) dozens of innocent/irrelevant people since 2001. The advocates of harsh security measures never consider this calculus:
  • Either totally don't engage in torture/violation of due process/etc. on moral/principled grounds (because legal grounds will always have gray areas and loopholes)
  • Or if you are considering it, think about: + benefit of the intel gained from true positives - cost of maintaining this global covert program - cost of type I/II errors - cost of true negatives (you tortured the wrong guy but didn't believe him until the end, thereby wasting resources/time) - blowback if/when your activities are made public
    • I just don't see how that formula could be positive

Wednesday, December 10, 2014

The Senate CIA torture report

Some of this was already known or suspected by us, but the confirmation and surprising excesses just make me ashamed to be American. It's a black mark on all the Americans who previously or currently fight for freedom and human rights honorably, or in some cases they do it smartly/peacefully so they don't need to fight at all.

Of course the CIA regurgitated the same tired lines that this disclosure will put US personnel and interests in danger overseas, and their tactics (albeit ugly) prevented attacks. Well on the first point, there is no such thing as secrecy in our social media connected world. Even if there was no Senate report, people all over the world have experienced or know of relatives and neighbors getting kidnapped, tortured, or assassinated. Do you think they don't care and just forget? They hate us for it and it breeds new security threats for the US. So don't blame the Senate for exposing what foreigners already know. The Senate is just forcing the apathetic, aloof public to look at ourselves in the mirror - which is a critical requirement of a functional free society that we may overlook.

Re: their second point, that the ends justify the means - well we know where that argument leads. Technically, it will probably make America safer if we nuke Pakistan tomorrow. Are we prepared to do that? Of course not. From a utilitarian perspective, you have to draw the line on how much evil you are willing to commit to do good, and I think our society wants to have a very low bar for that (as we should). If the outcome is good, you can rationalize and make all the excuses you want. But what if you're wrong and you failed? You committed all that evil for no gain, and we have to deal with the consequences of the evil too. The Senate report suggested that torture did generate some actionable intel, but they weren't critical pieces of intel, and in many cases that info was also obtained through more ethical means. So it was a lot of evil for very little benefits, and there were better ways to get the same benefits. Of course intel under duress is full of lies and false leads, which wasted intel resources. The CIA is a gov't agency too - so hawkish conservatives need to remember that it's not immune to similar screw-ups as we've seen at the VA, HHS, IRS, etc.

Like the recent NSA abuses, this is what happens when we as a society get so lazy/fearful/egocentric that we let our perceived security trump everything else, and entrust it to sociopaths with little to no scruples or accountability (and plenty of ulterior motives). Maybe that is not fair; I do believe that many in our security apparatus (even the criminals) do really love America and believe that they are doing what is best for our safety. But like Wall Street, they fail to take a broader, longer view of what safety truly means. Their mission at hand is not necessarily compatible to the overall mission of the US. And maybe like US law enforcement, we give the CIA more credit than they actually deserve in terms of brainpower and competence. Because it's pretty scary to ponder - are our protectors actually inept and immoral? Well it's better that we ask and find out, rather than just hope for the best and get a rude awakening (like 9/11, or Bay of Pigs, or Iran-Contra, and the list goes on and on).

Anyone who has worked a corporate job knows how easily it is for depts and teams to get fixated on their immediate objectives and success criteria, without considering the implications/significance on the overall company's success. I think this probably occurred at the CIA and NSA. Their narrow success criteria are "intel" and kills (in the case of the CIA), and they are the ones who get to tell their "customers" how good of a job they're doing. So without due diligence, attribution, and independent scrutiny, who is to say whether their intel and kills are actually low or high value? So of course, each morsel of info they gather is a home run, and each target they murder was an immediate threat to the US. They are incentivized to get as much info as possible, by whatever means available (and under Bush and Obama, they got the keys to the kingdom).

Sure there is some federal oversight, but most of it is classified and never gets public review. I don't think that is a very smart way to structure things. But we can't really expect the CIA and NSA to not go hog wild if we give them such freedom, mandate, and budgets. The bigger blame is on our civilian leaders who let the beast out of the cage, and the US public who failed to hold any of them accountable (until it was too late). And I doubt anyone will get fired or go to jail over the report, which adds to the tragedy. 

---

Regarding points 1 and 2 I would offer a less cynical approach:
1.  It will endanger Americans because the truth being exposed is ugly.  I heard some official say there really isn't a good time to release this kind of info.  So pragmatically speaking, they should expect backlash.  So not a reason to stop the release but an accepted cost of release.
2.  Whether this is true or not I can imagine an insider wanting or needing it to be true.  Not that the ends justify the means but that the means, having been done, provided something worthwhile.  The alternative is all loss and nothing redeeming.
So hopefully some of these people are making these assertions for the right reasons instead of political ones.

----

Thx, M. Yeah as you said, there's never really a good time to announce bad news. But if the CIA was worried about this stuff getting out and endangering Americans, then they shouldn't have done it in the first place. It's the act, not the revelation, that is damaging. And so far, I haven't heard of any attacks on US targets. An optimistic way of looking at it might be that foreigners will respect America more for investigating its dirty laundry rather than burying/denying it like Putin or Kim might.
Like the VA hearings a while back, this is of course is prompting calls for a "total review" of the Agency and cultural change, but as we know, that stuff happens slowly or never. Congress seems upset that they were misled/not fully informed, although the CIA denies it. No president (incl. Obama) has tried to stand up and rein in the CIA. There was some talk that Kennedy wanted to after the Bay of Pigs fiasco, but obviously didn't get the chance (and some believe that the CIA had a role in his death, but I don't mean to bring up conspiracies).

I think the timing of the report is slightly political, as the Dems are losing the Senate next month. But based on the sheer volume of the report, I guess it was years in the making. There was a push within the Dem party to investigate and try to hold someone accountable for the errors during the Bush years (they already did 9/11 and WMDs, so torture/Gitmo was the last one).

---

Why are they beyond reproach? They were created by the state, and the state represents the citizenry. It's not like they're some rogue kingdom like North Korea that we have to handle with kid gloves. But I guess they do act like a "state within a state" at times.

Maybe our leaders don't have the stomach for it, but with a stroke of a pen, Congress and the President could require the CIA to expose its finances, data, and emails each year (to the right eyes of course), and we could appoint an independent watchdog that needs to be present at all high level intel and strategy meetings - and also has to approve any tier 1 action. Just knowing that someone is watching you is often enough to clean up behavior and reduce risk taking. And if this is done delicately, it won't degrade our security readiness at all. In fact, could be the opposite. Sure the CIA will bitch about it (no one likes a micromanager), but then they should have behaved better in the first place.

---

Isn't that sort of not true though?  I mean the whole part that is in contention is whether and/or to what extent the CIA fed lies to the overseers.  The classic who watches the watchers dilemma.  So watchdog all you like there will never be a guarantee that an agency whose sole agenda is covert ops will be fully forthright with anyone but themselves.  Not to say we quit and take it but these gaps in information are sort of the cost of entry to this type of game.

---

I see your point, but that is why the CIA can't be trusted to self-report truthfully (just like you have to take a defendant's testimony with a grain of salt unless corroborated by others). We have to go beyond the Congressional committees (even though they swear oaths when they testify), and have non-CIA people embedded at the Agency to watch the watchmen. It's also like SOX compliance, public companies have to hire a third-party audit firm for the accounting - they just can't tell the SEC to trust them that it's all good.  

Saturday, April 18, 2009

Obama and CIA torture immunity


"This is a time for reflection, not retribution." - President Barack Obama

"Justice deferred is justice denied." - Congresswoman Diane Watson, at the 50th Anniversary of Brown vs. Board of Education, a ruling that allowed blacks like Watson and Obama to get a quality education that would allow them to one day run for public office.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090417/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_torture_memos_reaction
http://www.kqed.org/epArchive/R904170900 (first 10 minutes of the interview on this subject)

So Obama and Holder have decided to declassify the CIA memos that describe the torture techniques used during the interrogations of the Bush years. Some have praised that move. This shows that they are all about decency, change, and transparency, right? Well, the CIA has been fighting the release of these documents to the public for years, and ostensibly, Obama has only decided to finally do it because the ACLU lawsuit on the matter looks surely to prevail.

But even worse, he has declared immunity for the CIA personnel who participated in the tortures. He said that those people were patriots who were trying to protect America, and were given assurances by Bush's Justice Dept. that what they were doing was legal. But the same can be said of Nazi concentration camp guards. Did the Nuremberg Commission buy that excuse? They were following orders, they were assured it was ok, they did it for their country.

But the rules of war (and US military rules) state that soldiers have a DUTY to disobey unlawful orders. I don't know about CIA regulations, but many of the jailers and torturers were soldiers borrowed by the CIA for unofficial duties. If someone waves a paper in front of your face saying it's ok to execute the prisoners in your care, what will you do? Hopefully you will disobey because you know that it's wrong and others will punish you when the dust settles, even if at the moment your superiors reassure you that it's legal. But torture is different than execution, right? Is it? Detainees have died in US custody due to "harsh interrogation" that was supposed to be non-life-threatening. Sleep deprivation, stress positions, exposure to severe cold, and beatings with blunt objects don't leave visible damage, but the trauma killed several detainees with health ailments. They could even kill healthy people. At least 3 Gitmo detainees committed suicide, either out of desperation for their predicament, ideological conviction, or a coverup for murder. So when a jailer is ordered to do certain things to a detainee that he is assured are legal, and the physical reaction by the detainee is urination, screaming, vomiting, and even unconsciousness - do you continue as if everything is kosher? Not once do you feel that as a US serviceperson and conscientious citizen, you have the obligation to question whether it is right? Not once as a human do you stop and wonder why you have to cause so much pain to a defenseless stranger (who hasn't even been charged with a crime and has not seen any evidence against them), and whether such brutality is even helping national security? People who didn't stop to ponder those questions are criminals; there's no way around it Obama.

http://www.laprensa-sandiego.org/archieve/may21-04/disobey.htm
http://www.pubrecord.org/torture/677.html?task=view
http://www.truthout.org/article/three-guantanamo-detainees-die-suicides-army-says

The world still looks up to us for moral leadership and social justice (I have no idea why). What kind of message does this send? How can we protest Darfur atrocities, or journalists detained and tortured in Iran? How can we mend fences with the skeptical, angry Muslim world? And beyond that, how do we encourage them to reform politically and respect the rule of law, when we are exonerating the criminals among us? At least jail a couple of Company slackers who had poor performance records anyway, and force some spooks to resign as early retirement with a nice pension. Do something superficial at least, but don't just try to sweep it under the rug as if nothing is wrong. Obama said he would respect the opinion of his AG on the matter, but that is a cop-out. Obviously prosecuting CIA torturers is a legal nightmare. It's probably a tougher challenge than prosecuting terror suspects. Most of these crimes happened years ago overseas, and evidence is shaky at best (remember how the CIA admitted to destroying hours of interrogation and torture videos?). The chain of command is not evident. Well, I'm not expecting convictions and speedy justice, but at least do a little digging around. If the DoJ went after allegedly corrupt US legislators with so much zeal (and made plenty of stupid errors along the way), then I think we can at least try to build some cases against petty CIA torturers, if not the ex-leaders who deployed them. But politics win the day again, and Obama doesn't want to appear that he is on a "partisan witch-hunt", fearing that the GOP may circle the wagons and further impede his ambitious economic recovery efforts.

Obama on the campaign trail, April. 4, 2008:

What I would want to do is to have my Justice Department and my Attorney General immediately review the information that's already there and to find out are there inquiries that need to be pursued. I can't prejudge that because we don't have access to all the material right now. I think that you are right, if crimes have been committed, they should be investigated. You're also right that I would not want my first term consumed by what was perceived on the part of Republicans as a partisan witch hunt because I think we've got too many problems we've got to solve.

So this is an area where I would want to exercise judgment -- I would want to find out directly from my Attorney General -- having pursued, having looked at what's out there right now -- are there possibilities of genuine crimes as opposed to really bad policies. And I think it's important-- one of the things we've got to figure out in our political culture generally is distinguishing betyween really dumb policies and policies that rise to the level of criminal activity... I think a basic principle of our Constitution is nobody above the law -- and I think that's roughly how I would look at it.
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/attytood/Barack_on_torture.html
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/08/04/obama/

I think it should be obvious to a law professor that you don't know if a crime has been committed unless you investigate first. So investigate instead of sweeping it under the rug! Both Obama and Holder have been quoted proclaiming unequivocally that waterboarding is torture. Warterboarding was a sanctioned technique in the declassified CIA memos. Torture is illegal according the US Army Field Manual, Geneva Conventions, and many other codes. "No one is above the law". "Genuine crimes as opposed to really bad policies?" Well torture is a really bad policy as well as a genuine crime, and no one is above the law, right? Even the CIA. But I am sure Obama and Co. don't want to piss off the spooks, whom they will need to help defend America, assist our allies, and win our overseas wars. Obama already nominated an outsider to head the CIA, probably insulting the senior staff who were looking for a promotion. He doesn't want to hurt morale any further, even at the cost of justice.