As usual with Israel and the west bank, is there a good guy
here? From Israel's standpoint there doesn't seem to be a path to a
"free" Palestine that doesn't threaten Israelis. On the other hand this
is an overwhelming force advantage for Israel that is killing civilians
in large numbers.
So while I agree perception of support can be tough in either case we are stuck with bad options and diplomatic dead ends.
----
I am curious - how would a free Palestinian state actually
threaten Israel more than the status quo (and the facts suggest that
Jews are very safe in Israel today, just as most Americans are very safe
from Jihadists)? That is of course contingent on Hamas being
marginalized/under control and Fatah mostly running things, but even if a
Pal. state was run by Hamas, they are not exactly ISIS. What could they
do to Israel that they are not already doing now (i.e. what do they
have to lose to give peace a chance)?
The settlements (populated by some of the most extremist elements of Jewish society) are provocative to Palestinians and frankly unsustainable for Israel. You get rid of them, and IMO the Palestinians have one less reason to fight. Same thing with the checkpoints, embargo, night raids, etc. I think Israel has the most to fear from the hardcore Zionists if they broker a peace accord. The zealots would try to overthrow the gov't (like our Tea Party on crack), feeling betrayed because all the land was promised to them by a 3K year old book (remember how some Zionists revolted when Sharon - who is far from a peacenik - had the IDF remove the settlers from Gaza?) Out of respect, I accept the Zionists' rights to their beliefs - but then they have to accept the costs that such beliefs impose. So to reiterate, I think the Israeli government's lack of interest in peace is not really driven by the Palestinian "threat", but a fear of the domestic repercussions. And maybe after such a long track record, I think it's fair to say that racism/bad blood/hubris are also a factor - the Israelis in power don't want to give the Palestinians (who they see as beneath them) the "victory" of peace and a self-governed homeland of their own. They may prefer to fight forever (and punish the Palestinians forever), because they know they can't lose and no one will stand in their way (apart from maybe a suicidal, nuclear Iran in a very unlikely scenario).
I think this is the 5th invasion of Gaza in 12 years. I don't think their objectives are purely security driven either. It's punitive and frankly mean/sadistic depending on your point of view. There's no strategic need to attack ambulances, hospitals, and international monitors/press. But that is what they do. Like what Efrati said about the Territories - some of what the IDF does is just to show everyone who's running things. That is not righteous, that is not defensive... it's bullying. And it's not just punishment for the Gazans choosing Hamas (as if they really had a choice), because the IDF is operating harshly (but obviously less harshly) in the W Bank too. IMO, all of it is punishment for the Palestinians refusing to fade away quietly into the night. They simply won't just die off or go away, and let the Jews enjoy their purely Jewish homeland. So the IDF and Israeli gov't are going to make their lives hell in perpetuity. Clearly it could be worse; it's not like the IDF is employing Boko Haram or North Korea tactics every day. The IDF/Israeli gov't have some decency/limits/respect for laws of course, but I feel that their disturbing actions/policies are permeated by this undercurrent of bigotry/bullying/resentment/what have you.
The settlements (populated by some of the most extremist elements of Jewish society) are provocative to Palestinians and frankly unsustainable for Israel. You get rid of them, and IMO the Palestinians have one less reason to fight. Same thing with the checkpoints, embargo, night raids, etc. I think Israel has the most to fear from the hardcore Zionists if they broker a peace accord. The zealots would try to overthrow the gov't (like our Tea Party on crack), feeling betrayed because all the land was promised to them by a 3K year old book (remember how some Zionists revolted when Sharon - who is far from a peacenik - had the IDF remove the settlers from Gaza?) Out of respect, I accept the Zionists' rights to their beliefs - but then they have to accept the costs that such beliefs impose. So to reiterate, I think the Israeli government's lack of interest in peace is not really driven by the Palestinian "threat", but a fear of the domestic repercussions. And maybe after such a long track record, I think it's fair to say that racism/bad blood/hubris are also a factor - the Israelis in power don't want to give the Palestinians (who they see as beneath them) the "victory" of peace and a self-governed homeland of their own. They may prefer to fight forever (and punish the Palestinians forever), because they know they can't lose and no one will stand in their way (apart from maybe a suicidal, nuclear Iran in a very unlikely scenario).
I think this is the 5th invasion of Gaza in 12 years. I don't think their objectives are purely security driven either. It's punitive and frankly mean/sadistic depending on your point of view. There's no strategic need to attack ambulances, hospitals, and international monitors/press. But that is what they do. Like what Efrati said about the Territories - some of what the IDF does is just to show everyone who's running things. That is not righteous, that is not defensive... it's bullying. And it's not just punishment for the Gazans choosing Hamas (as if they really had a choice), because the IDF is operating harshly (but obviously less harshly) in the W Bank too. IMO, all of it is punishment for the Palestinians refusing to fade away quietly into the night. They simply won't just die off or go away, and let the Jews enjoy their purely Jewish homeland. So the IDF and Israeli gov't are going to make their lives hell in perpetuity. Clearly it could be worse; it's not like the IDF is employing Boko Haram or North Korea tactics every day. The IDF/Israeli gov't have some decency/limits/respect for laws of course, but I feel that their disturbing actions/policies are permeated by this undercurrent of bigotry/bullying/resentment/what have you.
http://www.democracynow.org/
https://www.blogger.com/
http://www.theguardian.com/
http://www.pri.org/stories/
----
Clearly Israel isn't the categorical good guy. Sort of my
point. But before Gaza or Palestine becomes independent, is there any
other Islamic state (or ethnically middle eaten state) that either
doesn't or hasn't wanted to destroy Israel? Are there democracies
anywhere near as free or open as Israel? Compare Palestinian acceptance
in Jerusalem to Jewish acceptance in Tehran or Dubai or Baghdad or pick
a place.
While you might argue it can't be worse and perhaps that is
true the position of power Israel has over Palestine could never be
accepted over a sovereign country. And whether or not that is moral
from the Israeli state's perspective it is better for security. Unless
you believe a free Palestine won't elect Hamas or be an enemy to Israel.
----
Well, Israel and Egypt have had a long-standing peace (mostly
brokered and paid for by the US). Turkey is a big military trading
partner with Israel. And I am fairly sure that Pakistan, Indonesia, and
others don't want war with Israel any time soon. In fact, the 30K
minority of Jews still living in Iran
are generally not mistreated (it is the most Jew-friendly nation in the
region outside of Israel, despite the stupid things that Ahmadinejad
has said in the past). So in the Iranian case, it seems Persians
justifiably dislike the actions/policies of the Israeli gov't, and do
not wish harm on all Jews (dispelling another Israeli myth). I believe
that is the case for many Arab-Muslim countries. A lot of countries
don't like each other in the world, but they generally know how to
coexist or at least refrain from violence. The other Arab-Muslim states
have not attacked Israel for decades, if ever.
I think Israeli propaganda often exaggerates the hatred and "mortal dangers" they are under, when they are often the aggressor and clear economic-military power in the region (with strong US backing). Part of that may be intended to elicit Western sympathy, due to the emotional associations with past persecutions. Jews have not been treated well for most of history, but those bygone events do not really characterize the Jewish situation in 2014 (other peoples today are suffering much worse ethnic persecution with less ability to defend themselves - such as the south Sudanese, Syrian Sunnis, etc.).
Just because many of Israel's neighbors have a comparatively
worse record on freedom, good governance, and tolerance - I'm not sure
if that absolves Israel of its failings in those areas. Keep in mind
that Israel doesn't really have a free press vis-a-vis Palestinian
matters, Israeli Arabs are institutionally discriminated against, Jewish
fundamentalists sometime terrorize moderates and non-Jews, and the
Israeli gov't is responsible for more war crimes and civilian deaths
than most of its neighbors (except for Saddam's Iraq and Syria
recently). A growing % of Israelis openly chant "kill all Arabs" just
like the converse (i.e. there is mutual hate and no side is "innocent").I think Israeli propaganda often exaggerates the hatred and "mortal dangers" they are under, when they are often the aggressor and clear economic-military power in the region (with strong US backing). Part of that may be intended to elicit Western sympathy, due to the emotional associations with past persecutions. Jews have not been treated well for most of history, but those bygone events do not really characterize the Jewish situation in 2014 (other peoples today are suffering much worse ethnic persecution with less ability to defend themselves - such as the south Sudanese, Syrian Sunnis, etc.).
Again, I think Israel's fear-mongering over the 2-state solution (or giving any concessions to Palestinians) is a propaganda play. Their reasoning is basically: why give Palestinians more rights/land/etc. when their only goal is the destruction of Israel? They assume (or want us to believe) that Palestinian violence is driven by unrelenting anti-Semitism and suicidal intolerance, when in fact it is mainly resistance to Israeli brutality/injustice. Hate obviously plays a role, but rarely in history have the oppressed not expressed hatred against their oppressors. And that may be one of the Palestinians' key strategic flaws - they didn't have the courage/discipline to stick to nonviolent resistance a la Mandela/Gandhi. But maybe they figured that approach would likely fail due to Western support/bias for Israel?
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